Friday, March 16, 2007

Christians. Huh.

Centurion, who posted on this blog's comment sections, mentioned me on his own blog. So I commented. Perhaps it wasn't the most polite post I've ever made, but since he was making fun of me -- including the fact that I've been in a couple of college classes, which was weird because you'd think education was good, right? -- I was quite restrained. Also, I wanted to give the people who read his blog a chance to see my site.

So, what does he do? He gives me an angry clown face icon -- that's not my icon -- and he replaces my webpage link! Then he is praised for this by the people who on his board.

Huh. V. interesting, I think. Sure, I wouldn't have expected much of a fair shake on his board, and it's not like I'm in the habit of giving Christians a fair shake on my board, tho' my policy is to be firm but polite (I think they are very wrong, largely, and I am not shy about saying that, but I try to do it in a way that avoids personal attacks), and on every other blog I've posted on, even the ones where I radically disagree with the content of the blog, I've tried to be polite or at least jovial in my disagreement . . . so this treatment, I admit, comes as a surprise.

Particularly from a Christian. My favorite Bible quotation on this subject is Matthew 7:15-23:

Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them.

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.'

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31 Comments:

Santiago said...

Of course, by centuri0n's standards, you are the enemy and the enemy must not be given any quarter.

What I am curious to know about is how he justifies his own lies regarding the idea that "all these other blogs" that point to you belong to you. It takes all of about thirty seconds to verify that isn't the case but he seems to believe that because he lies "in a Christ-like way"(???) that it is acceptable.

Santiago
Santiago's Magic
Santiago's Magic Musings

March 16, 2007 11:38 AM  
Chris Bradley said...

Oh, sure, I dig that, but it's always so weird from a person who professes to be a Christian. Jesus speaks quite explicitly that wrath gets you sent to the burning place.

One of the things that served to initially drive me away from Christianity is that the most vocal Christians seemed to be the worst Christians.

Jesus mentions that, too, in the Sermon on the Mount, that people who proclaim their faith loudly are hypocrites, hehe. Well, he got THAT one right.

March 16, 2007 11:43 AM  
In said...

It seems like such a waste of time to argue with "christians" of this sort. It seems that, calling themselves "christian" is all they really have to do to make all their actions justified.

The only time they think they may be wrong is if some other christian, higher in the heirarchy, tells them so.

I don't think most christians believe in the bible anyway. They just believe that if they are nice to most people and fair to most people then Jesus will forgive them for the rest of it in the end.

(It almost makes me wish Hell were real, so I could laugh at them all while they burn with the rest of us :))

March 16, 2007 11:58 AM  
Chi said...

lol Sorry, this is Chi, by the way :) I used the wrong account on that last post :)

March 16, 2007 12:00 PM  
Chris Bradley said...

Chi!

A lot of Christians are weak in their religion, but they serve as a shield for the fundie ones. They can say, "Not all Christians are like Bush!" and, y'know, it's sort of true -- but it serves to defend Christianity generally. I think that if they're not "really Christians" they should leave the church entirely so we can, together, go after the fundie assholes. ;)

March 16, 2007 12:09 PM  
centuri0n said...

Bring it: what was "impolite" about what I did?

See: you can take offense and have your nose out of joint over what I did -- that's actually the point of what I did. You're an angry guy who has his nose out of joint, so I have you a big red warmer for your nose.

But the problem is this: how is it impolite to treat a person demonstrates outrage as a person who is making a fool of himself?

Be careful how you answer: because your answer has to be applied to the way you treat fundies and Christians in general. If it turns out that I'm "impolite" for treating you like a foolish person, you have done at least as much your so-called "blasphemy".

Be at peace.

March 16, 2007 12:10 PM  
centuri0n said...

I am also interested in how this part of Mt 7 applies to this discussion. Are you saying that anyone who does not allow himself to be mowed down by a mocking critic has somehow falsely prophecied?

I realize you don't think that this passage "literally" says anything, but clue me in: what does it say that applies to the problem of me taking you on with all the tools of intellectual engagement rather than with a flower and a poem about bunnies?

March 16, 2007 12:13 PM  
Chris Bradley said...

Centurion,

I'm saying that you're a wolf in sheep's clothing, and a hypocrite. i thought that was clear? ;)

March 16, 2007 12:15 PM  
divabeq said...

I don't recall Christ ever saying that you only had to be kind to those who were kind to you. I seem to recall something about turning the other cheek.

Not that I think that Chris has, in any of his writings, been *personally* rude toward you. He has said what he dislikes about Christianity, and about certain movements within Christianity. You, on the other hand, were not saying "I hate atheism and what some of its supporters do" you were personally attacking him. Not the same thing at all.

From where I'm sitting, he's acted much more Christian than you in all of this.

March 16, 2007 12:22 PM  
Krystalline Apostate said...

centuri0n:
But the problem is this: how is it impolite to treat a person demonstrates outrage as a person who is making a fool of himself?
It's not. Chris is trying to engage you as a person. He mocks & scoffs at your epistemology. As do I. You, of course, think that it's an essential part of yourself. I see it as an opinion only.
Be careful how you answer: because your answer has to be applied to the way you treat fundies and Christians in general. If it turns out that I'm "impolite" for treating you like a foolish person, you have done at least as much your so-called "blasphemy".
The opinion is not the person.
Are you saying that anyone who does not allow himself to be mowed down by a mocking critic has somehow falsely prophecied?
How does it go? "Judge not, etc." "Whosever calleth his brother Racah" & so on, & so on.
Your inability to turn the other cheek is duly noted.

March 16, 2007 12:40 PM  
al said...

Hi,
Came here via Centui0n's blog. See, found you with out the link! Had to go through one of your other blogs to get here but here I am! Whew!

So, he puts a picture up that conveys the idea (picture worth a thousand words and all that) that you are an angry fool and that upsets you?

You seem to know the bible sir and I am sure that you (and at least some of your readers) know that if you deny there is a God then the bible calls you a fool. Right?

If you walk around with a sign that says, "Pinch me I'm Irish" don't be angry if you get goosed. That would just be silly.

May God show you grace,

al sends

March 16, 2007 2:18 PM  
Yona said...

Oy... Chris, you have this incredible ability to get self-rightious people to assume you're attacking them personally. I am a little in awae of that, I usually have to actually apply personal insults to get this kind of reaction.

But, Al, Chris is *not* wearing a sign saying "Kick me, I'm an atheist", the "kick me" sign (or clown's face) was forced on him. Is this Christian humor at work? I mean, I'm a European Jew, I have a hard time knowing when I'm dealing with a pissed-off self-rightrious American Christian or just a pissed-off American. Y'all kinda look alike from over here.

March 16, 2007 2:47 PM  
centuri0n said...

"Hypocrite" only has teeth if I have done something I say others shouldn;t do.

I mean, it's not like I antagonized Christians with what I think they ought to consider blasphemy and then berated them when none of them were around. That seems to me to be a little cocky at best, and extremely impolite if you want to get prickly.

But then, I was also not the guy who wanted to call someone else a hypocrite for doing what I was already doing, either.

See: rather than cite Scripture at random, it's more useful to discover an actual piece of evidence or a definition which can be used to frame up one's complaint. Then you might be able to say things like, "ooh, he's a hypocrite" or "ooh, he's not doing what Jesus said to do" or some such thing.

Listen: if this is your daily fare, I can't wait to see your book. Have you e-published it yet? I'm almost breathless over it.

March 16, 2007 2:50 PM  
centuri0n said...

It's not. Chris is trying to engage you as a person. He mocks & scoffs at your epistemology. As do I. You, of course, think that it's an essential part of yourself. I see it as an opinion only.

Oh yeah -- that makes sense. He wrote his book as a philosophical treatise, not a shot at the emotions of people he thinks are sort of socially and philosophically helpless.

The opinion is not the person.

See above.

How does it go? "Judge not, etc." "Whosever calleth his brother Racah" & so on, & so on.
Your inability to turn the other cheek is duly noted.


Oh, that's great. Listen: you find those verses in context rather than spouting them as if they exist individually on a blank page, and I'll be glad to go over them with you. Until them, again, trying to leverage my conscience when you can't even really describe what ought to be in my conscience looks, well, foolish.

March 16, 2007 2:55 PM  
Al said...

Yona,
I don't think you being European or Jewish has any bearing on why you would miss my point.

I was just pointing out that the owner of a blog that quotes the bible, even without context, and takes pride in his "deep blasphemy" is probably feigning injury over being called a clown. A clown in the biblical sense of the word.

See? I'm not angry. Why would you think I was angry?

May God show you Grace,

al sends

March 16, 2007 3:36 PM  
Al said...

Yona,
One more thing... I don't know which would be harder to get, Christian humor or American anger, but I am anxious to find out. Of course one of us needs to have a sense of humor for this experiment to work.

May God show you Grace.

al sends

March 16, 2007 3:48 PM  
Chris Bradley said...

Centurion,

Well, as a writer, I'm glad you've said these things. It's precisely that sort of sentiment that I intend to pitch to my publisher -- I mean, you haven't even READ the book and you're in a tizzy over it!

Best seller, man, I tell you. Thank you for your contributions to demonstrating that my book has teeth. :)

March 16, 2007 4:13 PM  
Chris Bradley said...

Tho' I do agree Christians are philosophically helpless. I agree about that very strongly.

I will note, for instance, that you have yet to make an actual argument. ;)

March 16, 2007 4:16 PM  
Chris Bradley said...

Al,

I'm actually more upset about him changing my website address. Seriously. The primary purpose of me posting to his entry, at all, was to get my website out there so people can come here and see my blog, directly.

I feel that his changing my web address bespeaks he's pretty gutless. All he wanted to do is take potshots at a person without letting them say their side of the story.

March 16, 2007 4:20 PM  
Chris Bradley said...

Yona,

They think I am attacking them personally, hehe. I know this. They have a lot of ego wrapped up in the outward signs of their faith. Attacking their faith is attacking their person, for they have stretched their ego to include their religion as an unalterable part of their being.

Not just the religion, I think. You're religious and seem not to have this problem with people saying bad things about Jews (in the sense that they avoid anti-Semitism; such as my political critiques of Israel).

(I mean, I am writing a book about Jews! Not Christians! Jews! And many of the things I'm saying in Simon Peter are as applicable to Judaism [or Islam, or Hinduism, or whatever] as to Christianity. I don't see YOU freaking out. Hell, you've encouraged me to write in the same vein about Torah figures.)

So, it's not that he's religious but that he's outwardly religious. He makes a great noise about his faith and as a result an attack at Christianity is like cutting off his nose, it deforms him. So he must strike out.

I suspect that's a big part of the reason Jesus told people not to prostitute their religion in the marketplace. ;)

March 16, 2007 4:29 PM  
Al said...

Chris,
And here I am! Via Frank's blog no less. He must not have wanted to deprive you of visits :-)

Really, now... Why would a "fundie asshole"'s actions bother you? I think there is something deeper here.

God's Grace
al sends

March 16, 2007 4:37 PM  
Chris Bradley said...

Al,

Oh, please, do tell. ;)

March 16, 2007 5:04 PM  
Krystalline Apostate said...

centuri0n:
Oh yeah -- that makes sense. He wrote his book as a philosophical treatise, not a shot at the emotions of people he thinks are sort of socially and philosophically helpless.
I think you're projecting here: it wasn't aimed at you, per se, but your system.
Besides which, you've not read the bloody thing. So who ARE you to judge?
Oh, that's great. Listen: you find those verses in context rather than spouting them as if they exist individually on a blank page, and I'll be glad to go over them with you. Until them, again, trying to leverage my conscience when you can't even really describe what ought to be in my conscience looks, well, foolish.
Oh, I've heard this sad song before. My reading comprehension's just fine, thanks much, & those AREN'T outta context.
So quit being a whiny little bitch, okay?
You're inability to live by your own rules is also duly noted.
Pretty standard stuff, though. I had hoped for a little more substance, but thus far, you're all mouth & trousers.
Always writing in escape clauses for your actions. Tsk, tsk.
Not impressed.

March 16, 2007 11:08 PM  
Krystalline Apostate said...

al:
A clown in the biblical sense of the word.
There were clowns in the bible? Where was that? In the Book of Bread & Circuses? Or the long-lost Epistle to the Carnies? Or the Book of Bozo?
"He shall come to thy town in the midnight hours, like unto a thief in the night: & thou shall tweak his nose, mock his huge feet, & call him 'ye baldie'. & he shall call down the wrath of Pomeranians upon thee, that shall nip at thy ankles & bark at all hours so thou shalt not sleep.
For clowns are unsubtle, & swift to juggle. Ware the bowling pins, for they shall conk thee if thou art unaware of their descent."
Hehehehe.

March 17, 2007 12:27 AM  
Shane said...

I've yet to see any of these so called "Christians" try to act the part, except for Al's weak attempt with the stamp-on "May God show you grace" tripe. Instead, the focus seems to be on showing how Jesus himself showed how people like you are worthy only of mockery.

Whoever or whatever Jesus really was, the actions of many Christians today tend to go much further into showing the real fallibility of Jesus than your book ever will. But it's works like Simon Peter that, I think, will slowly make this more obvious to the layman.

March 17, 2007 1:53 AM  
Shane said...

An yes, Krystalline: there were at least thirteen clowns in the bible.

March 17, 2007 1:54 AM  
Al said...

Krys,
There are clowns in the bible. They had yet to manifest the red nose and floppy shoes during that time but they are there. We know them by their steadfast denial of God. The fool has said in his heart their is no God.

Shane,
Is there ever a time when mockery is appropriate? Different battles require different tactics. It would be bad form to show up at a gun fight with a knife now wouldn't it?

Chris and others come at Christians using, "from nothing, something came" as their battle cry. Don't fault us for pointing out their silliness.

May God show you Grace Shane. He overcomes such silliness all the time so I can type it and mean it.

al sends

March 17, 2007 2:26 PM  
Krystalline Apostate said...

al:
There are clowns in the bible. They had yet to manifest the red nose and floppy shoes during that time but they are there. We know them by their steadfast denial of God. The fool has said in his heart their is no God.
Oh, cute. Psalms 14:1. So that's where poisoning the well began.
Chris and others come at Christians using, "from nothing, something came" as their battle cry. Don't fault us for pointing out their silliness.
You, my friend, are a jackass. I've yet to meet an atheist who posits nihil ex nihilo.
Do all of you folks work off the same vanilla boilerplate? Your rejoinders are neither witty nor original.
Is there ever a time when mockery is appropriate?
It serves multiple purposes, but for me to tell you, requires the secret atheist handshake & decoder ring.

March 18, 2007 12:02 AM  
Al said...

From Krys- You, my friend, are a jackass. I've yet to meet an atheist who posits nihil ex nihilo.


Wow! Latin! He understands me! He really understands me!

I have met several ex nihilo atheists in my time. They ususally talk about the eternality of the universe (silly) or that the earth was seeded with alien sperm, pushing the 'nothingness' back a few gazillion years or whatever.

Hey, wasn't this the question that pushed Dr. Flew out of the atheist camp?

Well, now we are just boring folks. Enjoy life Krys but remember: here come 'da Judge, here come 'da Judge. And He has not reinvented Himself since He said this:
"When I choose the proper time,
I will judge uprightly. The earth and all its inhabitants are dissolved; I set up its pillars firmly.



al sends

March 18, 2007 4:03 AM  
chamblee54 said...

Hey. I heard about you at Scent's blog. He is such a humorless fuddy duddy.
I followed the links he provided, and I saw the one about "why I hate christians". I commented on this, and soon realized that I was in error.
This is quite a bit to comprehend on a Sunday morning.
I have one more comment about Scent. On his posts at Pyromaniacs, he signs off with "grace and peace to you". Are we to use him as an example?
If you like, look at my blog...chamblee54.blogspot.com... and you will see lots of Scent Scented debris.

March 18, 2007 7:14 AM  
Krystalline Apostate said...

al:
I have met several ex nihilo atheists in my time. They ususally talk about the eternality of the universe (silly) or that the earth was seeded with alien sperm, pushing the 'nothingness' back a few gazillion years or whatever.
The eternality of the universe? Oh, this old saw again. Energy's always existed. Quantum loop mechanics shows there was a contracting universe prior to the big bang. Fred Hoyle was a panspermist (directed exogenesis), but those are few & far between (that I know of). Like I said, I haven't met any yet. There's the Raelians, but they're a clump of fools anyways, atheist or no, & I don't suffer fools gladly.
Hey, wasn't this the question that pushed Dr. Flew out of the atheist camp?
I don't know, nor do I care. Flew's his own man, as is Dawkins: I don't 'follow' either, so don't start w/the projection crap.
Well, now we are just boring folks. Enjoy life Krys but remember: here come 'da Judge, here come 'da Judge.
Oh goody, another argument ad baculum. 'Be afraid, be VERY afraid.' Sorry, I don't do fear very well.
Let me point out a real double-standard here, if I may:

You say -
There are clowns in the bible. They had yet to manifest the red nose and floppy shoes during that time but they are there. We know them by their steadfast denial of God. The fool has said in his heart their is no God.
And THEN you say -
Is there ever a time when mockery is appropriate?
Pretty sweet, when you can play off a built-in double-standard, ain't it?
Hypocrite.
What does your book of fables say? Oh yeah, "As you sow, so shall you reap."

March 18, 2007 12:46 PM  

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